Heartless questions

[Muke]

This guy reminds me of Eel and his issues with digital and sexism.

This here.
This Thread is rrally getting outta hand, btw.

Let's get back to Topic, before a fight'll start. c:

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Lol quick to get butt hurt, by a comment and not your boyfriend.
Anyway, I can't explain it will, but his words made it super easy to make gay fan fiction. Which I hate, but people can wrote what they want

It's just so easy to write straight fan fiction for Sora and Kairi. Which I hate, but people can write what they want.

 

[Vulpeus1041]

Let me apologize, I'm sorry if anyone got affended! (T.T)
I was just saying that axel sounded a bit something...won't happen again, I promise!
Let's get back to the topic shall we

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Thank you.

So...heartless. What were the burning questions???

 

[Sephiroth0812]

It's just so easy to write straight fan fiction for Sora and Kairi. Which I hate, but people can write what they want.

Lol, right on target. Great.

---
Y'know, issues like this really make me sometimes wish that the KH series would be bold enough to introduce some canon explicit gay representation just to piss those heteronormative crusaders off.

Otherwise I'm mostly with BlackOsprey though in not being fond of shipping in KH in general, meaning both the gay and straight stuff as there is both FanFics and FanArt that gets way out of hand.

---

Back to topic:

Also, I personally think KH has a pretty good balance between light Disney stuff and darker themes, some games more than others, but overall. If anything the "kiddy" or whatever stuff gives nice contrast to the overarching plot that's going on. There's a lot of horrible stuff happening between the fun and games.

There is definitely a balance, but as it seems there are not many who recognize this balance or there would not be the constant demands to "throw out the kiddy Disney" and/or make the series "darker and more mature" (which leads to a pet peeve of mine as "mature" and "dark" are not synonyms in the slightest).

Yep, pretty much horrible stuff indeed, of which the Heartless are only a part.

 

[Vulpeus1041]

One question was did the lost keybladers leave heartless?
Getting killed by a keyblade releases hearts and if killed by another weapon other than the keyblade, where do the hearts go

 

[HK Motendra]

One question I have is, if a person loses their heart and becomes a heartless, but without a nobody, could said person ever be restored? Or was that already explained in KHI, when Sora defeats a heartless with the keyblade, that the person returns (Something like that, at least? I very vaguely remember a remark akin to that somewhere in the game, but its been so long since I've done so that it might as well have been all in my head)

 

[Vulpeus1041]

One question I have is, if a person loses their heart and becomes a heartless, but without a nobody, could said person ever be restored? Or was that already explained in KHI, when Sora defeats a heartless with the keyblade, that the person returns (Something like that, at least? I very vaguely remember a remark akin to that somewhere in the game, but its been so long since I've done so that it might as well have been all in my head)

Yen sid says in KH 2, at times when someone is strong of heart and will gets taken over our yields to the darkness in them, they will leave a dusk. Or if even stronger, a big nobody. So that means most people don't leave both a heartless and nobody. How could they be revived, if to revive they need to destroy both.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

One question was did the lost keybladers leave heartless?
Getting killed by a keyblade releases hearts and if killed by another weapon other than the keyblade, where do the hearts go

That would depend on if their hearts succumbed to Darkness after being lost or not.
Keyblades also do not automatically release hearts of any being they're used against, as they don't do that even with Heartless as only Emblems release hearts, the hearts of which Purebloods are made are purified and then reunited with their respective body.

One question I have is, if a person loses their heart and becomes a heartless, but without a nobody, could said person ever be restored? Or was that already explained in KHI, when Sora defeats a heartless with the keyblade, that the person returns (Something like that, at least? I very vaguely remember a remark akin to that somewhere in the game, but its been so long since I've done so that it might as well have been all in my head)

Of course they can. That's the easiest variant out of all because the body is not occupied by something else and thus free.
Having a Heartless and no Nobody is the norm, not the exception as only very strong hearts even create a Nobody.

Yen sid says in KH 2, at times when someone is strong of heart and will gets taken over our yields to the darkness in them, they will leave a dusk. Or if even stronger, a big nobody. So that means most people don't leave both a heartless and nobody. How could they be revived, if to revive they need to destroy both.

That's the thing, you don't need to destroy both if there's only a Heartless. In that case you need to only free the Heart from the Heartless in order to restore the person.

The explanation for that was given already in 2005/2006 in the "Director's Secret Report" by Nomura himself which was released together with KH II Final Mix (only in Japan of course):

VIII - When the heartless are defeated, what becomes of the stolen hearts? Also, when members of Organization XIII and other Nobodies are defeated, do they return to their original form?

When heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody, when there is no container for the heart it resorts to a state of suspension.

In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.

The answer for what happens when there is only a Heartless (the usual case) is given in the very first sentence of the answer.

 

[Anagram]

Every time I see this topic I'm reminded why I've grown to dislike the nobody concept. >_<
The heartless-pureblood thing still confuses me too. The pureblood is a hearts darkness made monster, okay simple, good. The emblem however is what? They was originally made by a machine so do they have a heart they originate from? Wouldn't they release two hearts if they did?

 

[Vulpeus1041]

yeah, and in days the emblem heartless would give like 30 hearts sometimes, wtf..
did the heartless maker machine store hearts and extracted the darkness to make them? with science?

 

[Anagram]

^ Dude, dude, stop there. The heart meter in Days is a gameplay mechanic. Gameplay mechanic should always, ALWAYS, be understood as separate from the actual story element. Like, for example, how Sora uses party members for Drives in KH2. Gameplay wise they vanish but if you enter a cutscene while in a drive the party members are still there.

That's a good question about the machine though....

 

[Vulpeus1041]

haha yeah i know, youll come to find im sarcastic at times....

that place was being used by the apprentices to work on hearts, i think in the ansem reports in kh 2 said something about them taking people. and they discovered heartless that way
plus the secret entrance where xemnas goes is probably where they took the people, i mean there were cells down there...

 

[BlackOsprey]

The Heartless manufactory was said to simulate the conditions required for a Heartless to spawn. Whether that means using a real heart and subjecting it to some really nasty darkness stuff, or synthesizing the entire process without using a real heart, was not really mentioned at any point.

That's right though, before Apprenticenort and the others built that huge machine and did their mad-sciencey stuff overtly, they built a basement lab where they'd conduct experiments on kidnapped people in secret. The secret room from KHII FM was likely that same lab.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

The emblem however is what? They was originally made by a machine so do they have a heart they originate from? Wouldn't they release two hearts if they did?

Y'know Gram, on this question about the Emblems I'd like to remind you of a discussion we had about this topic one year ago involving the Heartless manufactory and data Hearts, as well as quoting you from back then:

Perhaps even the emblems are just data made real by replicating how heartless form.

Here is the thread: Don't be discouraged by the title of the thread, the discussion eventually turns towards the Emblem Heartless.

This thread above might also be an interesting read for all the others interested in the topic as back then we really debated the crap out of it.
(Damn how I miss those times...<__<).

 

[BlackOsprey]

This thread above might also be an interesting read for all the others interested in the topic as back then we really debated the crap out of it.
(Damn how I miss those times...<__<).

Stuff like this makes me wish that I was around here earlier. But holy crud, I've never thought of it that way at all! Emblem Heartless being data made real because of heart-data shenanigans... heck, an infinite army of them. That's actually kind of terrifying to think about. D:

 

[Hirokey123]

Interesting.... I had always figured that what Xehanort did was create a way to artificially extract darkness from a heart, the darkness manifesting as a heartless without the heart itself ever actually being consumed by darkness. I felt like Vanitas further gave that theory more credibility because it showed Xehanort had already done a very similar process, and that maybe Vanitas was in part inspiration for this process with the emblem referencing this by being colored liked he is and marked with the "Chi" symbol. Of course the difference from that case would be the only thing the machine extracts is the darkness itself, leaving the whole heart intact. Which is then why popping an emblem heartless yielded a heart.

The advantage of Xehanort's machine would be that since the heart isn't becoming a heartless, he could just funnel that heart's darkness to appear somewhere else essentially creating an empty dark shell. While the heart itself would be left in the machine and thus it could incubate and have more darkness generated in it to be extracted. Allowing it to produce as many heartless from one heart as he pleases though it would take time. Which is why his machine has numerous hearts in it to account for the fact that there would be a delay in production because it takes time for the darkness to regrow and regenerate.

Though this would mean his heartless from the machine start out empty, but they would still be able to collect heart inside themselves so when destroyed they'd still yield hearts kind of like mini living collection tanks. And they possessed the ability to convert other heartless into emblem heartless, making them a self replicating force like the purebloods.

 

[appleboy82791]

I'm pretty sure if any concept in the KH series was straight forward and easy to understand these forums would have 10% of the threads they do now.

 

[Anagram]

Y'know Gram, on this question about the Emblems I'd like to remind you of a discussion we had about this topic one year ago involving the Heartless manufactory and data Hearts, as well as quoting you from back then:

Here is the thread: Don't be discouraged by the title of the thread, the discussion eventually turns towards the Emblem Heartless.

This thread above might also be an interesting read for all the others interested in the topic as back then we really debated the crap out of it.
(Damn how I miss those times...<__<).

lawl Oh damn. How did you remember that far back? I'm lucky to remember last week....
I had forgot this discussion. So we basically came up with the idea that emblems are data? Seems fitting since Ansem had that matter-to-data conversion machine in the basement. (what "zaps" you into Trons world)

Stuff like this makes me wish that I was around here earlier. But holy crud, I've never thought of it that way at all! Emblem Heartless being data made real because of heart-data shenanigans... heck, an infinite army of them. That's actually kind of terrifying to think about. D:

It is a shame you didn't appear sooner. I could probably find more topics like that if ya want. I had enough threads back in the day of theories. Most of them debating with Sephiroth0812 if memory serves.

Interesting.... I had always figured that what Xehanort did was create a way to artificially extract darkness from a heart, the darkness manifesting as a heartless without the heart itself ever actually being consumed by darkness. I felt like Vanitas further gave that theory more credibility because it showed Xehanort had already done a very similar process, and that maybe Vanitas was in part inspiration for this process with the emblem referencing this by being colored liked he is and marked with the "Chi" symbol. Of course the difference from that case would be the only thing the machine extracts is the darkness itself, leaving the whole heart intact. Which is then why popping an emblem heartless yielded a heart.

The advantage of Xehanort's machine would be that since the heart isn't becoming a heartless, he could just funnel that heart's darkness to appear somewhere else essentially creating an empty dark shell. While the heart itself would be left in the machine and thus it could incubate and have more darkness generated in it to be extracted. Allowing it to produce as many heartless from one heart as he pleases though it would take time. Which is why his machine has numerous hearts in it to account for the fact that there would be a delay in production because it takes time for the darkness to regrow and regenerate.

Though this would mean his heartless from the machine start out empty, but they would still be able to collect heart inside themselves so when destroyed they'd still yield hearts kind of like mini living collection tanks. And they possessed the ability to convert other heartless into emblem heartless, making them a self replicating force like the purebloods.

This is so overly convoluted it's possible...gonna stick with the emblems are data idea. Either way though I think it's safe to say the emblems start out empty.

I'm pretty sure if any concept in the KH series was straight forward and easy to understand these forums would have 10% of the threads they do now.

Take a stroll through 13yrs worth of interviews and you'll find how painfully true this is.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Stuff like this makes me wish that I was around here earlier. But holy crud, I've never thought of it that way at all! Emblem Heartless being data made real because of heart-data shenanigans... heck, an infinite army of them. That's actually kind of terrifying to think about. D:

Those were really fun times indeed. Essay-long posts skimming through the lore looking for visual evidence/implications as well as dialogue and report scrutiny were common and not just done by two people.

It is terrifying, especially if one also keeps in mind that Xehanort and Ansem's apprentices might have been creating new hearts in the data environment just for the purpose to torture these newborn entities until they collapse, fall into darkness and create a new Heartless which can then be copied indefinitely and branded as a new "Emblem"-type.
The Ansem Reports in KH 1 especially entertain that notion:

This device is the culmination of all my research thus far. The machine's test run successfully created a Heartless. This may be a step toward creating a heart from nothing. The artificially and naturally created Heartless showed nearly identical traits. But the two types remain distinct for the purpose of the experiment. So, I will mark the ones that are created artificially.

They might have started by feeding the hearts of some of the prisoners/guinea pigs from the experiments into the machine (by digitizing them) to test how it works, but later after the "everything can grow a heart"-fact became clear they simply created conditions to have new hearts born, then break them until they turn into Heartless. (Or Xehanort did all that alone, considering the apprentices didn't knew about the "growing heart"-mechanism).
That there are hearts in the machine is even visually hinted at in KH 2 when Leon runs into the Heartless Manufactory while the MCP has activated it: In the glowing pods which sit in the alcoves over the wall you can see that each pod contains a heart if you look closely.
The MCP also knew instantly how to do all this because it had overseen the process before as dictated by Xehanort, Both Tron and Cid hint at that in KH 2' dialogue:

But Ansem is also the one who brought back the MCP. The Ansem I first knew wouldn't do that. I'm sorry I didn't tell you.

It's obvious that after banishing the real Ansem that Xehanort took over Ansem's login account and reactivated the MCP.

Turns out the MCP is using the data in that computer to crank out Heartless.

I'm pretty sure if any concept in the KH series was straight forward and easy to understand these forums would have 10% of the threads they do now.

If there's one thing we can be sure about it is that Nomura dislikes easy and straightforward concepts and answers when it comes to KH.
The original creator of Final Fantasy, Hironoku Sakaguchi, who Nomura considers to be a mentor of himself, once gave Nomura advice that a story has to have a certain level of complexity if it wants to compete on the market of JRPGs, yet it seems Nomura took that advice too far.

lawl Oh damn. How did you remember that far back? I'm lucky to remember last week....
I had forgot this discussion. So we basically came up with the idea that emblems are data? Seems fitting since Ansem had that matter-to-data conversion machine in the basement. (what "zaps" you into Trons world)


It is a shame you didn't appear sooner. I could probably find more topics like that if ya want. I had enough threads back in the day of theories. Most of them debating with Sephiroth0812 if memory serves.

I remembered it because of how impactful it was back then. Your question about the Emblems triggered that memory like a spark, lol.
Yep we did, we both found the parallels with the MCP creating and sending out Heartless and the info we have about Ansem's(Xehanort's) machine to be too much for it to be a coincidence.
That "matter-to-data" machine in the computer room is most likely what was used for the test runs of the machine, sending some of the guinea pig-prisoners into the machine and then proceed to thoroughly break their hearts (read: bonafide mindrape back and forth) in order to turn them into Heartless.
Xemnas hints at this in DDD actually I just realized:

Once born, the heart can also be nurtured. Our experiments creating Heartless were attempts to control the mind, and convince it to renounce its sense of self.

Nomura states in the DDD Ultimania that losing your sense of self eventually results in losing your heart:

— Why did Xehanort and co. word things as if to try and wake Ventus who is inside Sora?
Nomura: They did so in order to tempt Sora’s heart and have it fall to the darkness. In the story it also talks about how abandoning the self leads to losing the heart

It all adds up and can be deduced and put together by combining the KH 1 Ansem Reports, some facts learned in Coded, some dialogue from Tron, Cid and Xemnas as well as visual cues from KH 2. Nomura's statements are not strictly needed for it, but it is f course yet another hunt for all the puzzle pieces first before you can put them together.

Indeed, even back in 2012 up to 2014 we still had many of such topics making our minds smoking, lol.
We had indeed many debates back then, I even remember that we both occasionally would take different viewpoints on purpose just to juggle around different possibilities on topics that still had these even with the interviews around.