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Why is Aqua so popular?



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ROXAS_32

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I think she is popular for a few reasons
mainly.... these is finally female a character in the series that is more bad ass that tifa
 
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I don't think that's actually what happened. Remember, Aqua and Mickey were both thrown back like ragdolls by the X-blade at first, before Aqua called on the strength of her friendships and turned her Keyblade into a Laser Blade. I think the implication is that Aqua didn't just break the X-blade with a normal Keyblade, but with something even more powerful than the X-blade -- friendship. ;)

I think we also have to consider Ven's contribution. He destroyed the X-Blade from the inside. I would venture to guess that this occurred simultaneously, or fairly close to when Aqua broke it on the outside.

Basically, by Ven's heart rejecting Vanitas and destroying him, the X-Blade remained incomplete. It may even be the case that Vanitas destroyed the "inner key" that Nomura has talked about, leaving the outer, hollow shell of a keyblade for Aqua to destroy. I think that's an ample explanation for why her keyblade, imbibed with the power of her bonds, was able to shatter the X-Blade.
 

Zul

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I don't think that's actually what happened. Remember, Aqua and Mickey were both thrown back like ragdolls by the X-blade at first, before Aqua called on the strength of her friendships and turned her Keyblade into a Laser Blade. I think the implication is that Aqua didn't just break the X-blade with a normal Keyblade, but with something even more powerful than the X-blade -- friendship. ;)

The X-Blade is forged with a bond between light and darkness, the two primary forces in the KH universe. Aqua's shattering of it shows that friendship is something stronger than even those two forces. A lot of people try to use that scene to disparage Aqua's character for having an unusual amount of power out of nowhere, imo that's a clear lack of understanding of what that scene meant.


As for your above points, I usually draw conclusions based on dialogue at face-value, mostly because I've seen some of the most ridiculous conclusions ever reached because people kept assuming and making things up about what characters are thinking or feeling(example: someone literally believed that Sora was thinking about Riku when he was blushing while looking at Will and Elizabeth in Port Royal). That's why, to me, Vanitas's line overrides any assumptions we might make about whether he was being deceptive or not, or how long the X-Blade "should" take to be destroyed.

I'm going to look at the journal entries at some point(need to hook up PsP, out of batteries, lazy), which do clear up misconceptions sometimes(like who struck Terranort's heart). If you get the chance to before me, look up the incomplete X-Blade if it has an entry. Other entries that work are the scenario summaries for Ven and Aqua.
 

Ikkin

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As for your above points, I usually draw conclusions based on dialogue at face-value, mostly because I've seen some of the most ridiculous conclusions ever reached because people kept assuming and making things up about what characters are thinking or feeling(example: someone literally believed that Sora was thinking about Riku when he was blushing while looking at Will and Elizabeth in Port Royal). That's why, to me, Vanitas's line overrides any assumptions we might make about whether he was being deceptive or not, or how long the X-Blade "should" take to be destroyed.

Well, yeah, there are some really bad interpretations of dialogue out there. But that doesn't mean that all interpretations assuming characters are incorrect or lying are wrong -- there are certainly canon examples of that in this series, and things that, while not proven hint very strongly at characters hiding things (eg. Ansem the Wise has hearts in jars on his desk, yet claims that Xehanort was the only one doing questionable experiments).

And the dialogue surrounding this particular scene is rather lacking in clarity -- Vanitas says "broken" in one sentence and "not complete" in the next. Which brings me to my next point:


I'm going to look at the journal entries at some point(need to hook up PsP, out of batteries, lazy), which do clear up misconceptions sometimes(like who struck Terranort's heart). If you get the chance to before me, look up the incomplete X-Blade if it has an entry. Other entries that work are the scenario summaries for Ven and Aqua.

The journal is just as unclear about it as Vanitas' dialogue in Ven's story:

"When he regained his senses, he found himself inside his own heart. Vanitas was there too, and possessed the X-blade, but it was damaged; their union had not been finished. Vanitas sought to correct this; Ven sought to destroy the X-blade once and for all. They clashed again within Ven's heart, and in the end both the X-blade and Ven's Keyblade disintegrated. Ven smiled, knowing his friends were finally safe from Vanitas, and then slowly faded away."

Both "damaged " and "not finished" are used, despite the fact that they ought to be different concepts.

From Aqua's journal, we get this:

"She tried with all her might to free Ven's heart, but against the X-blade, all her might was no-where near enough. Aqua clutched the Wayfinder. As love for her friends filled her heart, light filled her Keyblade. She summoned the last of her strength and brought the Keyblade crashing down on Vanitas, cracking the X-blade and releasing a torrent of energy that spilled out into the Keyblade Graveyard, swallowing Aqua and everything else."

Which doesn't really confirm much, apart from explaining why she was able to turn her Keyblade into a Laser Blade.

However, I will once again point out the discrepancy in how the X-blade acts when destroyed on the inside and on the outside. When Ven beats Vanitas, the X-blade disintegrates into light as soon as Van's eyes close, with no further effects on the surroundings. When Aqua cracks the X-blade, it floats in the air, freaks out, and emits keyholes and energy beams all over the place for a minute or two until Ven changes back to his original form, at which point it almost immediately disintegrates and creates the massive explosion referenced in the journal.

All of that is very consistent with the idea that Aqua beat Vanitas before Ven did; if Ven had beaten Vanitas on the inside, Ventus-Vanitas should at the very least have lost Vanitas' dark suit and changed back to being Ven, but that only happens after Aqua cracks the X-blade. In fact, since Vanitas was completely erased after his fight with Ven, he shouldn't have been conscious to react to Aqua cracking the X-blade, as opposed to reacting in surprise and remaining conscious until he's disarmed and thrown to the ground. That Ven's destruction of the X-blade is immediate while Aqua's is delayed suggests that the X-blade was waiting for something after Aqua broke it, but didn't need to wait for anything when Ven killed Vanitas.

And there's still the question of why Ven woke up in the first place if it wasn't because of the X-blade's external destruction. No other reason is even hinted at as to why their union would have been interrupted; Ven's entirely passive in his reawakening and seems confused when his eyes open, which makes it seem very unlikely that he actively fought off Vanitas to do it.

(It's also interesting to note that, in Aqua's fight, cracking the X-blade -> disarming Vanitas -> Vanitas goes unconscious while in Ven's, disarming Vanitas -> Vanitas goes unconscious -> X-blade disintegrates, but I'm not sure whether it means anything. My assumption in the latter case would be that the X-blade's destruction is caused by Vanitas' death, which, again, only works if Aqua's already cracked the X-blade and thrown Vanitas back given that he's clearly alive until he hits the ground; it would be hard to argue that Ven directly destroyed the X-blade, since it doesn't react at all until Vanitas' eyes close, and it's impossible to argue that Vanitas wasn't fully erased before the X-blade was destroyed because Ven's unconsciousness at the beginning of the fight clearly didn't result in the X-blade's destruction)
 

Zul

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Hmm..that last part is interesting. The inside battle implies that destroying Vanitas caused the blade to disintegrate, the outside shows the opposite.

I agree that looking at visuals implies that Ven had his fight with Vanitas while inside. Visual queues have been somewhat misleading in the past(mostly referring to something in BBS actually, where that Dark Beach is supposedly something different from the one Sora and RIku were on, but looks EXACTLY the same, rock for rock), so I made my assumption based off of Dialogue.



What would happen then, if Vanitas defeated Ven on the inside? Would surface-Vanitas just get back up with the X-Blade repaired?


Also
Grass said:
Basically, by Ven's heart rejecting Vanitas and destroying him, the X-Blade remained incomplete. It may even be the case that Vanitas destroyed the "inner key" that Nomura has talked about, leaving the outer, hollow shell of a keyblade for Aqua to destroy. I think that's an ample explanation for why her keyblade, imbibed with the power of her bonds, was able to shatter the X-Blade.

Where is the Nomura interview where he talks about the inner key? I couldn't find it in the sticky links on Naryu's Love's topic.
 
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All of that is very consistent with the idea that Aqua beat Vanitas before Ven did; if Ven had beaten Vanitas on the inside, Ventus-Vanitas should at the very least have lost Vanitas' dark suit and changed back to being Ven, but that only happens after Aqua cracks the X-blade. In fact, since Vanitas was completely erased after his fight with Ven, he shouldn't have been conscious to react to Aqua cracking the X-blade, as opposed to reacting in surprise and remaining conscious until he's disarmed and thrown to the ground. That Ven's destruction of the X-blade is immediate while Aqua's is delayed suggests that the X-blade was waiting for something after Aqua broke it, but didn't need to wait for anything when Ven killed Vanitas.

And there's still the question of why Ven woke up in the first place if it wasn't because of the X-blade's external destruction. No other reason is even hinted at as to why their union would have been interrupted; Ven's entirely passive in his reawakening and seems confused when his eyes open, which makes it seem very unlikely that he actively fought off Vanitas to do it.

(It's also interesting to note that, in Aqua's fight, cracking the X-blade -> disarming Vanitas -> Vanitas goes unconscious while in Ven's, disarming Vanitas -> Vanitas goes unconscious -> X-blade disintegrates, but I'm not sure whether it means anything. My assumption in the latter case would be that the X-blade's destruction is caused by Vanitas' death, which, again, only works if Aqua's already cracked the X-blade and thrown Vanitas back given that he's clearly alive until he hits the ground; it would be hard to argue that Ven directly destroyed the X-blade, since it doesn't react at all until Vanitas' eyes close, and it's impossible to argue that Vanitas wasn't fully erased before the X-blade was destroyed because Ven's unconsciousness at the beginning of the fight clearly didn't result in the X-blade's destruction)

I don't think so. When Ven beats Vanitas, there's still an amount of time before he disintegrates. I would consider that a better point to coordinate when the dark suit disintegrates- at the same time that Vanitas on the inside disintegrates. And then if we work backward from that point, I'd imagine, as I said, that it was broken on the inside and outside at about the same time.

I don't think we can assume that just because Ven defeats Vanitas on the inside means he has to react in the same manner on the outside. That is, he's not going to reel back/moan/etc (after all, wouldn't he also be reacting in the outside world to every time Ven hit him? That would make things a bit too easy for Aqua). I think he retained control until his dying moment.

And then there is, of course, Ven and Vanitas' discussion of Ven destroying the X-Blade. Obviously, Ven had a part in it. The main part, I would guess. Otherwise, if Aqua had done it, that dialogue would have been pointless. Actually, even more funny, if Aqua had been the one to destroy the X-Blade, she was the one to destroy Ven's heart (The X-Blade is made of his heart so destroying it destroys his heart, as Vanitas points out), which we know isn't the case. Ven made a self-sacrifice.

So I maintain that what Aqua destroyed was the outer shell, perhaps simultaneously with Ven destroying the core.

Where is the Nomura interview where he talks about the inner key? I couldn't find it in the sticky links on Naryu's Love's topic.

Keyblades have 2 different constitutions, either from the Light side or the Dark side. This is merely the exterior key, the inner key can act from either side and its abilities won't change.
 

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Well, Aqua isn't exactly too hesitant to take on her friends when they become overcome by evil. She at least played a rather significant role in shattering Ventus's heart.
 

Ikkin

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I don't think so. When Ven beats Vanitas, there's still an amount of time before he disintegrates. I would consider that a better point to coordinate when the dark suit disintegrates- at the same time that Vanitas on the inside disintegrates. And then if we work backward from that point, I'd imagine, as I said, that it was broken on the inside and outside at about the same time.

I don't think we can assume that just because Ven defeats Vanitas on the inside means he has to react in the same manner on the outside. That is, he's not going to reel back/moan/etc (after all, wouldn't he also be reacting in the outside world to every time Ven hit him? That would make things a bit too easy for Aqua). I think he retained control until his dying moment.

You still don't get it, do you?

Let's assume that you're right about Vanitas' death equating with the disappearance of the dark suit on the outside -- this seems very reasonable. (I personally prefer to think that the dark suit disappears on the outside when Vanitas loses control of the X-blade on the inside and starts desperately pawing at it, which is a few seconds sooner, but that hurts your argument so I'll take your premise instead)

This means that the Vanitas wasn't killed until 35 seconds after Aqua cracks the X-blade, because that's how long it takes for Vanitas' dark suit to disappear after Aqua breaks the X-blade.

So, let's move on to the best case scenario for you time-wise, which is that Vanitas' death on the inside equates with his lack of consciousness on the outside -- significantly earlier than the dark suit's disappearance.

This still presents a serious problem, however, because Vanitas' death precedes the X-blade's destruction by five seconds on the inside even though he remains conscious for four seconds after Aqua cracks the X-blade on the outside. Vanitas obviously cannot be dead if Ventus-Vanitas is still reacting in his double voice, hence the X-blade can't be broken on the inside until after Ventus-Vanitas finishes reacting and passes out seconds after Aqua breaks the X-blade -- and the X-blade itself isn't destroyed on the inside until five seconds after Vanitas dies, leaving a 9-second gap between Aqua breaking the X-blade on the outside and Ven destroying it on the inside.

The best you can hope for if you want to say that Ven's actions made Aqua's possible would be to assume that Vanitas' initial loss to Ven itself enabled Aqua to destroy the X-blade, even though the X-blade itself wasn't destroyed on the inside until later. But that goes against your own premise that Vanitas getting hit on the inside shouldn't affect him on the outside, because then he would have been at too big of a disadvantage against Aqua. It also wouldn't make sense timewise with the disappearance of the dark suit; it's 15 seconds between Ven hitting Van and Van's death on the inside, and 35 between Aqua cracking the X-blade and the dark suit's disappearance on the outside.

And then there is, of course, Ven and Vanitas' discussion of Ven destroying the X-Blade. Obviously, Ven had a part in it. The main part, I would guess. Otherwise, if Aqua had done it, that dialogue would have been pointless. Actually, even more funny, if Aqua had been the one to destroy the X-Blade, she was the one to destroy Ven's heart (The X-Blade is made of his heart so destroying it destroys his heart, as Vanitas points out), which we know isn't the case. Ven made a self-sacrifice.

So I maintain that what Aqua destroyed was the outer shell, perhaps simultaneously with Ven destroying the core.

But that would still be the case with my theory, because Ven's fight with Van would take place after Aqua's. The idea being, Aqua wakes Ven up by cracking the X-blade and disrupting Van's control over the union, and Ven finishes the job by destroying Van (and therefore the X-blade itself).
 
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You still don't get it, do you?

Let's assume that you're right about Vanitas's death equating with the disappearance of the dark suit on the outside -- this seems very reasonable. (I personally prefer to think that the dark suit disappears on the outside when Vanitas loses control of the X-blade on the inside and starts desperately pawing at it, which is a few seconds sooner, but that hurts your argument so I'll take your premise instead)

This means that the Vanitas wasn't killed until 35 seconds after Aqua cracks the X-blade, because that's how long it takes for Vanitas's dark suit to disappear after Aqua breaks the X-blade.

Uh, sure, why not? Makes sense to me.
What's the problem?

Are you assuming that Vanitas has to die the instant the X-Blade is cracked? Even in Ven's fight, Vanitas is still alive after Ven beats him and the X-Blade is destroyed.

Or, wait, are you actually trying to coordinate the events in each scene by the second? I know people think I split hairs, but that's pretty bad.
I can tell you right now that things aren't going to match up perfectly no matter what scenario you're thinking of, because the developers are not going to put that much attention to detail into the game. We've already seen examples in the broader timeline where the timing of events in BbS, while not impossible, certainly doesn't match well when you compare them in different scenarios.

So they're sure as hell not going to be making sure the events in these two scenes match up, especially by the second. Already you've pointed out that the order of things outside don't match up with the order of things inside (Vanitas's death and whatnot). You can chalk that up to a number of explanations, but the real explanation is that the developers weren't keeping that in mind. Just as an example, we can say that time may not pass in the battle in Ven's heart as it does in the outside world, and that there may be some delay. If you're actually running the numbers, and trying to make things match, you're wasting your time.

I can actually see several situations which match in their own way, and I have no problem with considering alternate ideas.

But I think the important thing, no matter what explanation is offered (as there never is going to be an official one as to how the two scenes correlate), is that what Ven did on the inside made what Aqua did on the outside possible. This is because of what Ven and Vanitas's dialogue entails, as well as what would happen if Aqua was the actual one to destroy the X-Blade, as I already said.

Because it's based on dialogue and actual facts in the game, not the arbitrary timing of various minor events in two cutscenes.

The best you can hope for if you want to say that Ven's actions made Aqua's possible would be to assume that Vanitas' initial loss to Ven itself enabled Aqua to destroy the X-blade, even though the X-blade itself wasn't destroyed on the inside until later. But that goes against your own premise that Vanitas getting hit on the inside shouldn't affect him on the outside, because then he would have been at too big of a disadvantage against Aqua. It also wouldn't make sense timewise with the disappearance of the dark suit; it's 15 seconds between Ven hitting Van and Van's death on the inside, and 35 between Aqua cracking the X-blade and the dark suit's disappearance on the outside.

Sure, I could see that.

The moment the X-Blade is damaged on the outside is the moment Vanitas loses control- that moment when we see Ven strike him at the end of their battle.
Ven and Vanitas's union reflects the condition the X-Blade is in, so Ven defeating Vanitas on the inside (even if he isn't completely destroyed yet) could make it breakable on the outside. That is, we look at Ven and Vanitas on the inside as an indicator of how it's doing on the outside, because it's made from the union of their hearts (and at that moment, Ven's heart overcomes Vanitas's, rejecting it)
THEN Vanitas' loss of control of the X-Blade on the inside co-orelates with his loss of consciousness on the outside.
THEN he disintegrates on the inside and outside.

Makes sense.
The only times in which it would make sense for an internal and external reaction to synchronize would be either Vanitas losing control or Vanitas dying, and that depends on a number of things. The X-Blade cracking on the outside and Vanitas's dark suit disintegrating could both match up with different things.

The reason why I said Vanitas at the moment Ven strikes him should not correlate with his reaction on the outside is because, I thought of it as just that, him getting hit. If we are to look at it as the point where he loses control, though, sure, I could see that as either being the point where the X-Blade breaks or the point where Vanitas falls unconscious.

But that would still be the case with my theory, because Ven's fight with Van would take place after Aqua's. The idea being, Aqua wakes Ven up by cracking the X-blade and disrupting Van's control over the union, and Ven finishes the job by destroying Van (and therefore the X-blade itself).

Wait, what? The fight takes place after Aqua's? Weren't you just caviling over the seconds events take place between the two scenes and now you're saying that Ven's fight takes place after Aqua's? That would mean that it'd have to be a heck of a quick fight, literally a split second, probably on another plane of time (ie it goes faster than the outside), which would mean that all of your comparisons are pointless. Which I already think, but you know.

I don't see why we need some sort of explanation as to why Ven wakes up other than his heart was strong enough to resist a complete union with Vanitas.
 

Ikkin

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Uh, sure, why not? Makes sense to me.
What's the problem?

Still missing the point, I see. Let's just put it this way: Vanitas is not, in fact, Schrodinger's Unversed, and therefore cannot be both dead and alive at the same time.


Are you assuming that Vanitas has to die the instant the X-Blade is cracked? Even in Ven's fight, Vanitas is still alive after Ven beats him and the X-Blade is destroyed.

No, I'm not assuming.

I know for a fact that the X-blade was destroyed in Ven's fight because Vanitas died. =P Watch the scene again, since you've clearly forgotten what happened -- Ven smacks Vanitas in the ribs with his Keyblade and causes him to drop the X-blade; Vanitas desperately grasps for it as if drowning but can't reach, and his eyes close and he falls off-screen immediately before the X-blade disintegrates.

And that, as I've said over and over again, proves that Ven could not have destroyed the X-blade on the inside at the same moment as Aqua cracked it on the outside, because that would require Vanitas to be alive in Aqua's story despite being dead in Ven's.


Or, wait, are you actually trying to coordinate the events in each scene by the second? I know people think I split hairs, but that's pretty bad.
I can tell you right now that things aren't going to match up perfectly no matter what scenario you're thinking of, because the developers are not going to put that much attention to detail into the game. We've already seen examples in the broader timeline where the timing of events in BbS, while not impossible, certainly doesn't match well when you compare them in different scenarios.

My time estimates are meant more for the purpose of more firmly establishing the order in which things happen and demonstrating the level of detail I've subjected the cutscenes to, rather than creating a second-by-second timeline (because I agree, that would be silly). When there's 35 seconds of X-blade sparking between X and Y, it's hard to say that X and Y really happened at the same time. =P


Already you've pointed out that the order of things outside don't match up with the order of things inside (Vanitas's death and whatnot). You can chalk that up to a number of explanations, but the real explanation is that the developers weren't keeping that in mind.

I'm not saying the order of things are internally inconsistent; Vanitas can die before the X-blade is destroyed in Ven's story and go unconscious after it's cracked in Aqua's with no contradictions.

What I'm saying is that your explanation is inconsistent with the facts of what happened when, and is therefore inferior to my explanation which does not contradict any of those facts. Assuming that the developers messed things up is rather disrespectful when there's a perfectly good explanation that doesn't involve them being incompetent staring you in the face. =P


I can actually see several situations which match in their own way, and I have no problem with considering alternate ideas.

As long as they remove Aqua's agency, I imagine. -_-


But I think the important thing, no matter what explanation is offered (as there never is going to be an official one as to how the two scenes correlate), is that what Ven did on the inside made what Aqua did on the outside possible. This is because of what Ven and Vanitas's dialogue entails, as well as what would happen if Aqua was the actual one to destroy the X-Blade, as I already said.

Because it's based on dialogue and actual facts in the game, not the arbitrary timing of various minor events in two cutscenes.

Except that, as I've said many times, the timeline does not allow for Ven to do anything that would make what Aqua did possible (without being particularly convoluted and counterintuitive, anyway).

And using dialogue from a character who's likely either ignorant or intentionally manipulating the truth in a situation in which the preservation of suspense completely rules out the possibility of mentioning Aqua's role to show that she doesn't have any is not quite as effective as you think it is when you're dealing with a series that loves to put exposition in the mouths of unreliable characters.

Think about it -- why would Aqua ever be brought up in that scene, no matter how big her role in the destruction of the X-blade was? We're never given any indication that Destati!Vanitas knows what's going on outside of the combined Ven-Vanitas heart -- he might have had no idea that their union was disturbed by Aqua cracking the X-blade instead of simply failing to complete it properly to begin with. And even if he did know, he would have no reason whatsoever to let Ven know -- given Vanitas' personality, there is no way in heck he's going to let Ven know that Aqua's okay, especially when it means admitting that Aqua bested him. It would be completely out of character for him to say something like that. And, on top of that, it's dramatically disadvantageous to bring that up in Ven's story, because that means spoiling the ending of Aqua's story!

There's every reason in the world for the explanation given not to mention Aqua's role, so using it as evidence against Aqua playing a role is disingenuous at the very best.


Sure, I could see that.

The moment the X-Blade is damaged on the outside is the moment Vanitas loses control- that moment when we see Ven strike him at the end of their battle.
Ven and Vanitas's union reflects the condition the X-Blade is in, so Ven defeating Vanitas on the inside (even if he isn't completely destroyed yet) could make it breakable on the outside. That is, we look at Ven and Vanitas on the inside as an indicator of how it's doing on the outside, because it's made from the union of their hearts (and at that moment, Ven's heart overcomes Vanitas's, rejecting it)
THEN Vanitas' loss of control of the X-Blade on the inside co-orelates with his loss of consciousness on the outside.
THEN he disintegrates on the inside and outside.

Makes sense.
The only times in which it would make sense for an internal and external reaction to synchronize would be either Vanitas losing control or Vanitas dying, and that depends on a number of things. The X-Blade cracking on the outside and Vanitas's dark suit disintegrating could both match up with different things.

The reason why I said Vanitas at the moment Ven strikes him should not correlate with his reaction on the outside is because, I thought of it as just that, him getting hit. If we are to look at it as the point where he loses control, though, sure, I could see that as either being the point where the X-Blade breaks or the point where Vanitas falls unconscious.

Now you're just grasping at whatever straws you can to denigrate Aqua's achievements.

If the only things in Ven's heart that can correlate to things happening on the outside are Vanitas losing control and Vanitas dying, than nothing can correlate to the X-blade being cracked.

See, there's one little problem about both of those conditions: they each require Vanitas to no longer be in control of Ven's body. If Ven overpowering Vanitas renders the X-blade breakable, it should also render Vanitas' control over Ventus-Vanitas incomplete. But Ventus-Vanitas is completely in control up until Aqua cuts the X-blade from his hands -- his and Aqua's blades are locked and they're both clearly fighting for the dominant position, and he looks super-confident up until Aqua cracks the X-blade. Such a struggle would have been impossible if Vanitas' control was contested, because there's about a million ways to get yourself killed if your swords are locked and you're distracted (and I would imagine that would be particularly true if said distraction was the suicidal owner of the body you're controlling =P ).


Wait, what? The fight takes place after Aqua's? Weren't you just caviling over the seconds events take place between the two scenes and now you're saying that Ven's fight takes place after Aqua's? That would mean that it'd have to be a heck of a quick fight, literally a split second, probably on another plane of time (ie it goes faster than the outside), which would mean that all of your comparisons are pointless. Which I already think, but you know.

I was going with the "different plane of time" thing.

And, yeah, I realize that comparisons of the scenes by seconds are inevitably useless. I, unlike you, also realize that admitting that does not necessarily mean giving up on the use of a more general version of timing (ie. X takes a while in Aqua's story, while Y is near-instantaneous in Ven's).


I don't see why we need some sort of explanation as to why Ven wakes up other than his heart was strong enough to resist a complete union with Vanitas.

Because the visual language in that scene portrays Ven as passively as it's possible to portray him when he awakens.

If Ven fought Vanitas off by his own accord, why isn't there any indication of resistance? When the Ven-Vanitas Dive to the Heart is revealed, Ven is sleeping peacefully -- eyes closed, lips pursed, generally relaxed. He's surprised when he sees Van's there too. If this is the heart that resisted the union that Vanitas forced on him in the previous scene, why does he not know it?

Heck, if the Ven-Vanitas union was never completed, why is Ven unconscious at all? That's not how you portray someone who hasn't given in yet and is still struggling -- it's how you portray someone who failed and was given a second chance by outside forces. It's not like it would have been hard to show Ven continuing to struggle -- he could have woken up fitfully, clawing at an imaginary enemy above him. He could have been curled up on the floor with his hands over his head in pain. He could have continued from where he was in the previous scene screaming until he snapped out of it, yelled "NO!" and broke free of Vanitas's internal control. He could have even woken up next to an unconscious Vanitas at the same exact time, to show that the unconsciousness was a result of the union rather than of failing to dominate said union.

But that's not how it happened. They portrayed Ven as helpless and passive immediately after the union until he woke up, and Vanitas as already awake and in a position of power. If Ven's heart was supposed to be strong enough to resist Vanitas, why portray him as if he failed to do so?
 
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Still missing the point, I see. Let's just put it this way: Vanitas is not, in fact, Schrodinger's Unversed, and therefore cannot be both dead and alive at the same time.

.... Except I've not been suggesting anything of the sort?
In both suggestions, I've coordinated his disintegration on the inside to the disintegration on the outside.


No, I'm not assuming.

I know for a fact that the X-blade was destroyed in Ven's fight because Vanitas died. =P Watch the scene again, since you've clearly forgotten what happened -- Ven smacks Vanitas in the ribs with his Keyblade and causes him to drop the X-blade; Vanitas desperately grasps for it as if drowning but can't reach, and his eyes close and he falls off-screen immediately before the X-blade disintegrates.

And that, as I've said over and over again, proves that Ven could not have destroyed the X-blade on the inside at the same moment as Aqua cracked it on the outside, because that would require Vanitas to be alive in Aqua's story despite being dead in Ven's.

You know what I'm seeing? The X-Blade being destroyed and then Vanitas dying.
Don't say this "I know for a fact" bullshit because you're once again assuming- assuming that Vanitas closing his eyes is an indicator that he's dead- which is completely idiotic. No one in the KH universe becomes a corpse, they disintegrate in some manner as they die.

The only point we can firmly establish that he's died is when he disintegrates which occurs AFTER the X-Blade is destroyed.

My time estimates are meant more for the purpose of more firmly establishing the order in which things happen and demonstrating the level of detail I've subjected the cutscenes to, rather than creating a second-by-second timeline (because I agree, that would be silly). When there's 35 seconds of X-blade sparking between X and Y, it's hard to say that X and Y really happened at the same time. =P

I was going with the "different plane of time" thing.

And, yeah, I realize that comparisons of the scenes by seconds are inevitably useless. I, unlike you, also realize that admitting that does not necessarily mean giving up on the use of a more general version of timing (ie. X takes a while in Aqua's story, while Y is near-instantaneous in Ven's).

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Huh? What? How can you even conceive of a more "general version of timing" when you have absolutely no idea what the scale of time is in Ven's scene compared to Aqua's?
If time travels completely differently in one scene than another and you have no idea of the relationship between the two, then it is pointless to compare the two.

Saying something like "When there's 35 seconds of X-blade sparking between X and Y, it's hard to say that X and Y really happened at the same time." is completely invalidated because you have no basis for saying it. Moreover, using the actual seconds in the real world that a cutscene elapses does nothing for your point.

We can only surmise a few things based on the order, sure. Eg that Vanitas dying inside has to either precipitate or occur simultaneously with him dying on the outside- though, of course, you arrive at a few problems when deciding when exactly he dies- inside and outside. So even that is vague and can be interpreted in several ways. But you CANNOT use the actual duration of events in one cutscene as an indicator of something in the other, that's completely ludicrous.

I'm not saying the order of things are internally inconsistent; Vanitas can die before the X-blade is destroyed in Ven's story and go unconscious after it's cracked in Aqua's with no contradictions.

What I'm saying is that your explanation is inconsistent with the facts of what happened when, and is therefore inferior to my explanation which does not contradict any of those facts.

Nope, pretty sure you're saying my explanation doesn't coincide with your assumptions, like when Vanitas dies.

Assuming that the developers messed things up is rather disrespectful when there's a perfectly good explanation that doesn't involve them being incompetent staring you in the face. =P

Are you actually saying that they took the time to coordinate the events in these cutscenes in the exact correct order/duration? Pretty sure you just dodged that.

And, oh, your theory is competent? Riddle me this then:
- Why is it that Vanitas loses control of the X-Blade externally almost instantaneously? Literally, after Aqua cracks it, it flips into the air. And yet, according to your idea, Ven and Vanitas should be fighting on the inside at that point- Vanitas with the X-Blade. If you were explaining that by saying, "Oh, Ven and Vanitas' fight was over before Aqua pushes back Vanitas- a tiny fraction of a second," then it still doesn't add up, because that creates another problem. If the fight itself was over that fast, then so would Vanitas' internal death. Heck, the internal X-Blade would be destroyed almost instantly. And yet we have all this time before Vanitas' dark suit dissolves, which would have been well after the death of Vanitas. See what I did there? I used the timing of things to show how inconsistent your theory is, which is why I said it's completely useless to use timing since you're not going to get a perfect version of events.
- But moreover, there are issues with what it entails: Aqua is able to crack the X-Blade, which wakes Ven up? So, to clarify here, are you saying that the X-Blade was complete until Aqua cracked it? If so, why did Vanitas say "our union was not finished" (which implies that they were not completely unified in the first place) rather than something to the effect of "our union has been interrupted" (which implies that their union was finished but temporarily reversed). If, on the other hand, you're saying that the X-Blade was incomplete at that point... well, what exactly did Aqua do? She woke up Ven? Did he really need waking up if his heart was already strong enough to resist a complete union?

I tend toward the latter case because Aqua breaking a complete X-Blade seems less plausible and I don't think Ven could have provided her the strength of his bonds if he had been in complete union with Vanitas. But it still begs that question- what purpose was she serving?

As long as they remove Aqua's agency, I imagine. -_-

Yes. It's not as though I believe this because I dislike Aqua. On the contrary, she's my favorite female character in KH, but I am not going to provide her a greater role than I think she actually has.


Except that, as I've said many times, the timeline does not allow for Ven to do anything that would make what Aqua did possible (without being particularly convoluted and counterintuitive, anyway).

Aqua breaking the X-Blade to allow Ven to destroy it is convoluted and counter-intuitive.


And using dialogue from a character who's likely either ignorant or intentionally manipulating the truth in a situation in which the preservation of suspense completely rules out the possibility of mentioning Aqua's role to show that she doesn't have any is not quite as effective as you think it is when you're dealing with a series that loves to put exposition in the mouths of unreliable characters.

You're actually trying to throw out the validity of Vanitas' claim based on "Well he could be lying and KH characters are unreliable."
Fuckin' a, nothing is reliable in this series, is it? Can't use anything for evidence because, you know, it might be a lie.

And you're saying that I'm grasping at straws.

At that point, what Vanitas was saying was exposition for the audience, not something intended to be manipulative. Had he not said that their union wasn't finished, the audience wouldn't know what's going in. There would be no point in lying at that point because, fuck, not even the audience would know he's lying.

Think about it -- why would Aqua ever be brought up in that scene, no matter how big her role in the destruction of the X-blade was? We're never given any indication that Destati!Vanitas knows what's going on outside of the combined Ven-Vanitas heart -- he might have had no idea that their union was disturbed by Aqua cracking the X-blade instead of simply failing to complete it properly to begin with. And even if he did know, he would have no reason whatsoever to let Ven know -- given Vanitas' personality, there is no way in heck he's going to let Ven know that Aqua's okay, especially when it means admitting that Aqua bested him. It would be completely out of character for him to say something like that. And, on top of that, it's dramatically disadvantageous to bring that up in Ven's story, because that means spoiling the ending of Aqua's story!

There's every reason in the world for the explanation given not to mention Aqua's role, so using it as evidence against Aqua playing a role is disingenuous at the very best.

Internal Vanitas doesn't know what External Vanitas is doing? Despite the fact that he's in control?
So, uh, guess Internal MX had no idea what was going on with External Xehanort- oh wait:
"Muscle and sinew that once obeyed you now rebels against you."

The heart knows. That is abundantly clear. It's where memories are stored, is it not? It reacts to situations with emotion, does it not?
Also, he didn't have to mention Aqua. As I said, the very wording of his on their union provides evidence against your idea.

Now you're just grasping at whatever straws you can to denigrate Aqua's achievements.

If the only things in Ven's heart that can correlate to things happening on the outside are Vanitas losing control and Vanitas dying, than nothing can correlate to the X-blade being cracked.

I literally just said in that quote that the X-Blade being cracked could correlate to Vanitas losing control.

See, there's one little problem about both of those conditions: they each require Vanitas to no longer be in control of Ven's body. If Ven overpowering Vanitas renders the X-blade breakable, it should also render Vanitas' control over Ventus-Vanitas incomplete. But Ventus-Vanitas is completely in control up until Aqua cuts the X-blade from his hands -- his and Aqua's blades are locked and they're both clearly fighting for the dominant position, and he looks super-confident up until Aqua cracks the X-blade. Such a struggle would have been impossible if Vanitas' control was contested, because there's about a million ways to get yourself killed if your swords are locked and you're distracted (and I would imagine that would be particularly true if said distraction was the suicidal owner of the body you're controlling =P ).

Exactly, Vanitas exudes an air of control until Aqua cracks the X-blade (ie when he loses control of the X-Blade on the inside), and he subsequently loses the X-Blade on the outside and passes out.

I don't understand the problem. Are you assuming Ven should regain control of his body when Vanitas loses control of the X-Blade? In that case, you're making it sound like the equivalent of a Riku-Ansem/Terra-MX possession, where one persona can regain control. Ven would never be able to regain control of his body because of the condition they were in. By destroying Vanitas, who was in control, he was destroying his own heart too. So rather than Ven regaining control of his body when Vanitas loses control of the X-Blade, Vanitas externally passes out.


Because the visual language in that scene portrays Ven as passively as it's possible to portray him when he awakens.

Haha, what? You mean how he wakes up... the same way that Sora does in his Destati? So are we to assume someone from the outside had to wake Sora up in his dream in order for him to proceed through his Destati?

That's simply the manner they enter the Dive to the Heart. That's it. I don't know how you can pull from that that someone must have woken him up. If they really had wanted to go in that direction, you'd figure Ven would have heard Aqua's voice or something to that effect (followed by Vanitas saying, "Our union has been interrupted" or something).


If Ven fought Vanitas off by his own accord, why isn't there any indication of resistance? When the Ven-Vanitas Dive to the Heart is revealed, Ven is sleeping peacefully -- eyes closed, lips pursed, generally relaxed. He's surprised when he sees Van's there too. If this is the heart that resisted the union that Vanitas forced on him in the previous scene, why does he not know it?

Heck, if the Ven-Vanitas union was never completed, why is Ven unconscious at all? That's not how you portray someone who hasn't given in yet and is still struggling -- it's how you portray someone who failed and was given a second chance by outside forces. It's not like it would have been hard to show Ven continuing to struggle -- he could have woken up fitfully, clawing at an imaginary enemy above him. He could have been curled up on the floor with his hands over his head in pain. He could have continued from where he was in the previous scene screaming until he snapped out of it, yelled "NO!" and broke free of Vanitas's internal control. He could have even woken up next to an unconscious Vanitas at the same exact time, to show that the unconsciousness was a result of the union rather than of failing to dominate said union.

But that's not how it happened. They portrayed Ven as helpless and passive immediately after the union until he woke up, and Vanitas as already awake and in a position of power. If Ven's heart was supposed to be strong enough to resist Vanitas, why portray him as if he failed to do so?

You're reading into this way too much.

The light in his heart was strong enough to prevent Vanitas' darkness from consuming it, something which was done unconsciously. Some of these things are done unconsciously, we don't need kicking and screaming to indicate resistance, so sorry if that isn't satisfying for you. Does Ven know he, for example, raised his keyblade and shot out a stream of light at the beginning and end of the game?
 

Chuman

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Because she is a female in Kingdom Hearts that can't get kidnapped, doesn't take credit for others work, is playable, a nice person, isn't fucking Kairi, and a bunch of other reasons.
 

Ikkin

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.... Except I've not been suggesting anything of the sort?
In both suggestions, I've coordinated his disintegration on the inside to the disintegration on the outside.

But you can't do that, because of the order of events. >_< As I've explained repeatedly.


You know what I'm seeing? The X-Blade being destroyed and then Vanitas dying.
Don't say this "I know for a fact" because you're once again assuming- assuming that Vanitas closing his eyes is an indicator that he's dead- which is completely idiotic. No one in the KH universe becomes a corpse, they disintegrate in some manner as they die.

The only point we can firmly establish that he's died is when he disintegrates which occurs AFTER the X-Blade is destroyed.

Look, it's an issue of causation here: either the destruction of the X-blade kills Vanitas, or Vanitas' death destroys the X-blade.

Vanitas literally can't have been killed by the destruction of the X-blade, because he's already dying -- he's unconscious and falling, even if he hasn't started glowing yet -- before it disintegrates. In fact, no physical damage is done to the X-blade at all in that scene before Vanitas closes his eyes and it doesn't show any reaction to Vanitas letting go of it, so Vanitas' demise is the only possible reason for its destruction.

In any case, let's say Vanitas is unconscious instead of dead. What, exactly, does that change in this argument? Vanitas can no more be awake and in control of the Ventus-Vanitas body while his heart is unconscious than he can if it's dead. =P


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Huh? What? How can you even conceive of a more "general version of timing" when you have absolutely no idea what the scale of time is in Ven's scene compared to Aqua's?
If time travels completely differently in one scene than another and you have no idea of the relationship between the two, then it is pointless to compare the two.

Saying something like "When there's 35 seconds of X-blade sparking between X and Y, it's hard to say that X and Y really happened at the same time." is completely invalidated because you have no basis for saying it. Moreover, using the actual seconds in the real world that a cutscene elapses does nothing for your point.

Let me try to explain my position on timing better -- the amount of time something takes is, of course, impossible to compare. But what timing can be used for is to show whether things are intended to be simultaneous or distinct.

I admit that using the number of seconds is probably not the best way to go about this, which I used to avoid subjectivity. In fact, it disguises some things that could have been fairly useful to me (like the fact that, despite real time elapsing between Vanitas falling back with his eyes closed and him being shown again falling, glowing and disappearing, that's still really one uninterrupted action). But bringing the argument back to that is completely pointless, because my arguments don't rely on that degree of timing -- all I need to say is that X is clearly intended to be earlier and distinct from Y, and Y is clearly intended to be earlier and distinct from Z, hence Z cannot possibly happen before X.


We can only surmise a few things based on the order, sure. Eg that Vanitas dying inside has to either precipitate or occur simultaneously with him dying on the outside- though, of course, you arrive at a few problems when deciding when exactly he dies- inside and outside. So even that is vague and can be interpreted in several ways. But you CANNOT use the actual duration of events in one cutscene as an indicator of something in the other, that's completely ludicrous.

You're making a bigger deal out of the question of when Vanitas dies than what it deserves. On the inside, he's at the very least dying when the X-blade disintegrates, and on the outside he's clearly conscious for at least a few seconds after Aqua cracks the X-blade -- he could die at several points after that, but it doesn't particularly matter when he dies if the earliest point is too late. =P


Nope, pretty sure you're saying my explanation doesn't coincide with your assumptions, like when Vanitas dies.

Actually, if you're paying attention, I've been attempting to show how your explanation doesn't coincide with any feasible interpretation of the events, and why the interpretations that you're suggesting that wouldn't contradict it aren't feasible. Which is, of course, how you debate something like this.


Are you actually saying that they took the time to coordinate the events in these cutscenes in the exact correct order/duration? Pretty sure you just dodged that.

You don't read half of what I write, do you?

Let me quote myself: "My time estimates are meant more for the purpose of more firmly establishing the order in which things happen and demonstrating the level of detail I've subjected the cutscenes to, rather than creating a second-by-second timeline (because I agree, that would be silly)."

So, no. I don't think that they took the time to coordinate duration.

But order? Of the biggest, most climactic scene in two of the game's three scenarios? Yeah, I think they coordinated order, and I think they'd have been massively irresponsible as writers if they didn't. =P We're not talking about an entire game's worth of cutscenes here -- we're talking about two of the most important cutscenes in the entire game, with a total length under ten minutes.


And, oh, your theory is competent? Riddle me this then:
- Why is it that Vanitas loses control of the X-Blade externally almost instantaneously? Literally, after Aqua cracks it, it flips into the air. And yet, according to your idea, Ven and Vanitas should be fighting on the inside at that point- Vanitas with the X-Blade. If you were explaining that by saying, "Oh, Ven and Vanitas' fight was over before Aqua pushes back Vanitas- a tiny fraction of a second," then it still doesn't add up, because that creates another problem. If the fight itself was over that fast, then so would Vanitas' internal death. Heck, the internal X-Blade would be destroyed almost instantly. And yet we have all this time before Vanitas' dark suit dissolves, which would have been well after the death of Vanitas. See what I did there? I used the timing of things to show how inconsistent your theory is, which is why I said it's completely useless to use timing since you're not going to get a perfect version of events.

Did you forget what my theory was? Vanitas loses control of the X-blade almost instantaneously on the outside because Aqua broke it, rather than because of anything Ven did.

What it matches up to on the inside is Ven waking up, not Ven winning. All of that sparking and keyhole-emitting is Ven and Vanitas fighting on the inside, Vanitas' loss on the inside corresponds to his dark suit vanishing on the outside, and the X-blade's destruction on the outside corresponds to its destruction on the inside. The timing isn't perfect to the second, but nothing happens in the wrong order.


- But moreover, there are issues with what it entails: Aqua is able to crack the X-Blade, which wakes Ven up? So, to clarify here, are you saying that the X-Blade was complete until Aqua cracked it? If so, why did Vanitas say "our union was not finished" (which implies that they were not completely unified in the first place) rather than something to the effect of "our union has been interrupted" (which implies that their union was finished but temporarily reversed). If, on the other hand, you're saying that the X-Blade was incomplete at that point... well, what exactly did Aqua do? She woke up Ven? Did he really need waking up if his heart was already strong enough to resist a complete union?

I tend toward the latter case because Aqua breaking a complete X-Blade seems less plausible and I don't think Ven could have provided her the strength of his bonds if he had been in complete union with Vanitas. But it still begs that question- what purpose was she serving?

I already explained why Vanitas said that in my last post -- because there is every reason in the universe for the external events to be ignored in this scene! The writers don't want to put it there because it would spoil Aqua's story, and Vanitas doesn't want to say it because it would mean admitting to Ven that Aqua's still alive and resisting him.

Riddle me this: what would be gained by Vanitas saying "our union was interrupted?" It'd have players thinking, "oh, hey, Aqua's okay!" instead of wondering what happened to her. It'd make Vanitas sound weak, since he'd be admitting failure. It'd be a complete and utter derail of how that conversation was supposed to go, because Ven would demand details, and that would have little purpose besides spoiling Aqua's story. It'd be absolutely and utterly out of character for Vanitas, basically turning him into Mr. Exposition no matter how unlikely he is to actually explain things properly in that context.

If there was going to be an explanation of what Aqua did, it would have to be in Aqua's scenario, not Ven's. Unfortunately, there's no way to do that because Aqua herself has no way of knowing what happened, and it's impossible to explain what Aqua did without spoiling Ven's scenario.

So, instead, they leave the dialogue ambiguous (you keep ignoring the fact that Vanitas calls the X-blade broken rather than incomplete or unfinished) and add in a plethora of visual cues to suggest that Aqua's already broken the X-blade before that fight begins, like the appearance of the incomplete X-blade, the way Ven wakes up, the existence of a timeframe in which the Ven-Vanitas fight could have taken place during Aqua's scenario, Vanitas' continued control over Ventus-Vanitas after the X-blade cracks, and probably a few other things I forgot. Because that's how they do things in Kingdom Hearts when there's no way to give the exposition without breaking character (see also: Xion's intentions during Days' final battle, Axel's reasons for kidnapping Kairi in KH2, etc.).

And, yes, I think Vanitas was wielding a complete X-blade when he fought Aqua? You know why? Because they made a Complete X-blade design and used it in that fight. Because the X-blade that Vanitas used against Aqua had an absurd level of cutscene power that Ven simply didn't face in his own scenario (if Aqua was thrown back into a wall by a simple swing of an Incomplete X-blade, Ven certainly should have too given that he's canonically weaker than her). Why should the weapon Ventus-Vanitas wields in that fight even exist in that form if Ven was never subdued?


Yes. It's not as though I believe this because I dislike Aqua. On the contrary, she's my favorite female character in KH, but I am not going to provide her a greater role than I think she actually has.

Well, when you attempt to salvage a lousy option you already rejected in order to avoid giving Aqua any real credit for the climax of her scenario, one begins to wonder. =P If you're right, then Aqua couldn't have done anything without Ven enabling it, which is really annoying given that she's the only female character in KH doing any of the real work to begin with. =/


Aqua breaking the X-Blade to allow Ven to destroy it is convoluted and counter-intuitive.

Ven destroying the X-blade to allow Aqua to break it is even more convoluted and counter-intuitive. See what I did there?

And did you forget what game we're talking about here? Convoluted and counter-intuitive is just how Kingdom Hearts rolls. If it wasn't, there wouldn't need to be two characters involved in the X-blade's destruction in the first place. =P


You're actually trying to throw out the validity of Vanitas' claim based on "Well he could be lying and KH characters are unreliable."
bonkin' a, nothing is reliable in this series, is it? Can't use anything for evidence because, you know, it might be a lie.

And you're saying that I'm grasping at straws.

At that point, what Vanitas was saying was exposition for the audience, not something intended to be manipulative. Had he not said that their union wasn't finished, the audience wouldn't know what's going in. There would be no point in lying at that point because, bonk, not even the audience would know he's lying.

Keeping Vanitas in-character is a pretty good reason for him to avoid telling the full truth, I think. =P And, as I've repeated multiple times, it's not like there isn't room for ambiguity in his dialogue -- he says the X-blade is broken, which is a really weird way to say "was never completed to begin with."

It's certainly not unprecedented for characters to lie outright in important scenes -- remember Xion pretending that she'd gone mad and wanted to absorb Roxas when she really just wanted Roxas to kill her? And it doesn't make everything unreliable, either, because there's tons of stuff you can work with that isn't affected by unreliable dialogue (like, for instance, events and visual cues).


Internal Vanitas doesn't know what External Vanitas is doing? Despite the fact that he's in control?
So, uh, guess Internal MX had no idea what was going on with External Xehanort- oh wait:
"Muscle and sinew that once obeyed you now rebels against you."

The heart knows. That is abundantly clear. It's where memories are stored, is it not? It reacts to situations with emotion, does it not?

You choose that line as evidence? Seriously? First off, MX and Terra are both inside Apprentice Xehanort at that point, and both of them are locked out. And, more importantly, it's far too general to prove that he knows exactly what's been happening outside -- all it proves is that he knows that he's in control of the body, which is blatantly obvious even from the inside.

I just have serious trouble imagining that fight working out with Vanitas being fully conscious both on the outside fighting Aqua and on the inside fighting Ven at the same time. How can he see both sets of events at the same time? How can he react with both real and mental muscles in different ways at the same time? There are no other scenes in which we see characters in their Dive to the Heart while doing anything with their bodies -- Sora's sleeping, Roxas is transported away bodily, young Ven's in a coma, and Terra and Master Xehanort are both locked out of Apprentice Xehanort's body.

So, unless Vanitas is unconscious on the outside when he's talking on the inside, it's highly unlikely for him to know what's going on -- which wouldn't really prove that he didn't know what was going on in my scenario, to be fair, but if you admitted he was unconscious on the outside I would have already won. =P

Also, he didn't have to mention Aqua. As I said, the very wording of his on their union provides evidence against your idea.

The one where he says the X-blade is broken? I think that proves evidence against your idea too. You're trying to use an ambiguous line to prove more than it's capable of proving.


I literally just said in that quote that the X-Blade being cracked could correlate to Vanitas losing control.

That wasn't a full argument in and of itself, just an introduction to the next part. Don't take things out of context.


Exactly, Vanitas exudes an air of control until Aqua cracks the X-blade (ie when he loses control of the X-Blade on the inside), and he subsequently loses the X-Blade on the outside and passes out.

Vanitas is still in control (in the sense of "not fighting for control of the body") for a few seconds after the X-blade is cracked, though.


I don't understand the problem. Are you assuming Ven should regain control of his body when Vanitas loses control of the X-Blade? In that case, you're making it sound like the equivalent of a Riku-Ansem/Terra-MX possession, where one persona can regain control. Ven would never be able to regain control of his body because of the condition they were in. By destroying Vanitas, who was in control, he was destroying his own heart too. So rather than Ven regaining control of his body when Vanitas loses control of the X-Blade, Vanitas externally passes out.

Here, let's try it this way: Ventus-Vanitas and the X-blade are the same thing -- the fusion between Ven and Vanitas' hearts. If something happens to weaken the X-blade, the Ventus-Vanitas fusion should be weakened as well. However, there's no indication of that at any point before a few seconds after Aqua cracks the X-blade. The weakening of the Ventus/Vanitas fusion doesn't have to take the form of Ven gaining control of their combined body, but it ought to have some visual representation, and that simply doesn't exist in the game.


Haha, what? You mean how he wakes up... the same way that Sora does in his Destati? So are we to assume someone from the outside had to wake Sora up in his dream in order for him to proceed through his Destati?

That's simply the manner they enter the Dive to the Heart. That's it. I don't know how you can pull from that that someone must have woken him up. If they really had wanted to go in that direction, you'd figure Ven would have heard Aqua's voice or something to that effect (followed by Vanitas saying, "Our union has been interrupted" or something).

Sora woke up naturally in his Destati as part of a dream. If you want to admit Vanitas' body was asleep, go right ahead, but then I've already won.

Ven's condition is completely unlike any other Dive to the Heart that we see, because it's caused by Vanitas trying to force a union between both of them and completely dominate Ven's heart. This means that Sora's Dive to the Heart is not necessarily the best example to use -- especially since Vanitas is already fully awake when Ven wakes up.

...and you're forgetting the fact that they're trying to avoid spoiling Aqua's scenario, aren't you? -_- Because that would be a great way to ruin her entire ending, and add little else. (Besides, why would Aqua cracking the X-blade take the form of her calling out to Ven in his mind? She's trying to subdue Ventus-Vanitas, not plead for Ven to wake up -_- )


You're reading into this way too much.

The light in his heart was strong enough to prevent Vanitas' darkness from consuming it, something which was done unconsciously. Some of these things are done unconsciously, we don't need kicking and screaming to indicate resistance, so sorry if that isn't satisfying for you. Does Ven know he, for example, raised his keyblade and shot out a stream of light at the beginning and end of the game?

That might be an argument if the entire fight didn't take place in Ven's subconscious after Ven's conscious self lost, and Ven's subconscious didn't come off as confused by what was going on.

I don't need kicking and screaming, but I do need some indication that Ven's subconscious knew that it had fought Vanitas off.
 

Zul

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I already explained why Vanitas said that in my last post -- because there is every reason in the universe for the external events to be ignored in this scene! The writers don't want to put it there because it would spoil Aqua's story, and Vanitas doesn't want to say it because it would mean admitting to Ven that Aqua's still alive and resisting him.

Riddle me this: what would be gained by Vanitas saying "our union was interrupted?" It'd have players thinking, "oh, hey, Aqua's okay!" instead of wondering what happened to her. It'd make Vanitas sound weak, since he'd be admitting failure. It'd be a complete and utter derail of how that conversation was supposed to go, because Ven would demand details, and that would have little purpose besides spoiling Aqua's story. It'd be absolutely and utterly out of character for Vanitas, basically turning him into Mr. Exposition no matter how unlikely he is to actually explain things properly in that context.

If there was going to be an explanation of what Aqua did, it would have to be in Aqua's scenario, not Ven's. Unfortunately, there's no way to do that because Aqua herself has no way of knowing what happened, and it's impossible to explain what Aqua did without spoiling Ven's scenario.

So, instead, they leave the dialogue ambiguous and add in a plethora of visual cues to suggest that Aqua's already broken the X-blade before that fight begins, like the appearance of the incomplete X-blade, the way Ven wakes up, the existence of a timeframe in which the Ven-Vanitas fight could have taken place during Aqua's scenario, Vanitas' continued control over Ventus-Vanitas after the X-blade cracks, and probably a few other things I forgot. Because that's how they do things in Kingdom Hearts when there's no way to give the exposition without breaking character (see also: Xion's intentions during Days' final battle, Axel's reasons for kidnapping Kairi in KH2, etc.).

Not exactly, the last thing we see before Vanitas fuses with Ven is that he knocked out Aqua, and that Mickey was getting closer to them.

If anything, the more obvious assumption is that Mickey intervened somehow. Saying "our union was interrupted" wouldn't automatically spoil Aqua's story at all.

And did you forget what game we're talking about here? Convoluted and counter-intuitive is just how Kingdom Hearts rolls. If it wasn't, there wouldn't need to be two characters involved in the X-blade's destruction in the first place. =P
... What purpose does this serve at all? "Oh well, Kingdom Hearts is confusing anyway" doesn't mean you use convoluted and counter-intuitive arguments when discussing it.



Keeping Vanitas in-character is a pretty good reason for him to avoid telling the full truth, I think. =P And, as I've repeated multiple times, it's not like there isn't room for ambiguity in his dialogue -- he says the X-blade is broken, which is a really weird way to say "was never completed to begin with."
"was never completed to begin with" was already said in other words. He said "Our union is not finished", not "interrupted".

Also, what did Vanitas do right before fusing with Ven? He just blew out their entire plan, he told Ven what the Unversed were, what their purpose was. His character wasn't deceptive at all at that point, he was proud of accomplishing his purpose. Arrogance is definitely more a part of his character than deception. In fact there are hardly any scenes where he tries to deceive Ven with out-right lies.

Most of the time he is telling him the outright truth, that Terra is no longer going to be himself. Followed by testing his strength, telling Aqua that she's "a backup" in her scenario, revealing Ventus's past to him along with MX.

If anything, the only real lie he told was "I'll choke the life out of Terra and Aqua", as he didn't intend to kill Terra.

The dialogue in the dive scene served to clarify what was going on there, you actually deviate from his character to assume it is a lie.


(you keep ignoring the fact that Vanitas calls the X-blade broken rather than incomplete or unfinished)
For the term "broken". His overall context is an indication of their union being unfinished, and the keyblade being incomplete.

He says "Our union is not finished". Words that clearly indicate that whatever process they used to form the X-Blade wasn't finished.

He looks at the X-Blade, the camera pans to it, it looks broken, so that's the word he uses there "The X-Blade cannot stay broken like this".

Then after looking back at Ven "join me now, and we can complete the X-Blade!"

His usage of "broken" was easily based off of his observation, he returns to using "complete" when he's talking about what they have to do(as opposed to "fix").

One word in the entire dialogue points to "broken", which is how the X-Blade appears. The entire dialogue, however, indicates(explicity states, actually) that the X-Blade is incomplete and that they need to complete it.
 

Goldpanner

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This whole argument is too complicated for me, but I think it's important to keep in mind what the X-blade actually IS. It's Vanitas and Ventus' hearts. Destroying it destroys them. That's the main reason I don't think Aqua broke it first, because in that case, she just shattered Ven's heart and I seriously doubt either he or Vanitas would be functional to have their battle. They wouldn't even need to have a battle because they'd be dead.

That said, it would be cool if Aqua calling out for Ven to give her strength woke him up, and then the squiggly lights shooting everywhere was a symbol of their battle, with the dark suit disappearing when Vanitas faded. Cool, but just wouldn't make any sense to me and I certainly didn't interpret it that way when I played.
 

Gray Aria

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Too many walls of text. I don't have time to read all of it so I'm just going to ask why is do people blame Aqua for all the bad stuff that happened in the series? The real person to blame would be Terra for being stupid and not learning from a single one of his mistakes until it was too late. But really, even then the person to blame is Xehanort. But still, I don't believe in throwing blame around. Blaming people has no place in solving a problem. Sometimes a decision is just that. A decision.
 

Chuman

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Too many walls of text. I don't have time to read all of it so I'm just going to ask why is do people blame Aqua for all the bad stuff that happened in the series? The real person to blame would be Terra for being stupid and not learning from a single one of his mistakes until it was too late. But really, even then the person to blame is Xehanort. But still, I don't believe in throwing blame around. Blaming people has no place in solving a problem. Sometimes a decision is just that. A decision.

Because people are pretty ignorant. She had good intentions. When I blamed her, I was thinking the glass was half-empty, but if Aqua didn't do what she did, let me show you what would've happened. If she didn't intervene, Vanitas would've created the X-Blade and wrecked havok that you couldn't even imagine. If she didn't save Xehanort, he would have been exposed to ten times the darkness that Ansem used to restore his memories, and he would've came back, very, very powerful.
 

Gray Aria

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Yeah, I'm thinking even after that fight she still hadn't abandoned hope of returning Terra to normal. The best way to keep that a possibility was to keep him as far from darkness as possible. So she could not allow him to fall into the realm of darkness.
 
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